How to declare share dividends in Bern canton

[pedroferreira]

Hello,

Does anyone knows how to fill in the tax declaration in the canton of Bern when it comes to declare dividends?
I have attached a file (with browser translation to English) to make it easier to understand what is requested. What is shown in the image are the default values upon selecting successfully a company.
My doubts are:
1) number of units as of 31.12.2024
It may sound like a simple question, but Pepsi pays dividends 4 times a year. Now, let's I had 1 share for the first date, 2 for the second date, 3 for the third date and 4 for the fourth date. If I put 4 in the form, won't the tax office consider that I have earned 4 times the dividend with the whole 4 shares?

2) dividend date(s) + number of shares on the dividend date
Here the date 05.01 is filled in automatically, which I can only assume it is 05.01.2024 which is one of the dates Pepsi paid dividends, but there are 3 more dates. As per example in the previous question, how is it possible to put the number of shares in a single cell for each of the dividend dates? Should I in this case enter a record for each of the dividend dates considering I had different amount of shares for each dividend date?
Meaning
05.01 - 1 share
01.04 - 1 share (at this time I would have 2 shares, but the other one was already considered in the previous entry)
28.06 - 1 share (again the same reason)
30.09 - 1 share (for the same reason)

3) Taxable income before deduction of any withholding taxes + Tax value per unit as of 31.12.2024 in CHF
So these 2 get populated automatically, but as soon as I choose a different currency, the 2nd gets cleared out. I guess it's better to leave it in chf, or?
Is the value 4.575 the income in dividends one share generated? I would assume so.
Also important, American shares have a retention of 15% at the source. Is this considered here? Because double taxation is illegal. Looking at this form there is nothing advertising that is or will be considered.

One last question, when declaring the ownership of this shares, should the amount which is invested in shares also be declared under the "bank accounts and balances" section? Because when I generate a report from my bank it shows account X has a certain amount of money.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Pedro

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

Hi Pedro

This form is very unintuitive.

1) This should be only for the wealth tax. I think you can put 4 here and it will compute the value at 31.12.2024, on which your wealth will be computed and taxed
2) Can you enter multiple values in the field, separated by commas? Or maybe semicolons or even spaces? The only way to get this right would be to enter four values. I think I would enter all four dates and then 1,2,3,4 and verify that the computations are right.
3) For the currency, I really do not know. I woudl expect USD to be correct, but why then don't they do the computations in the software. 4.575 should be your income per share indeed. Once you have filled everything, I would expect it to be higher since you have multiple shares. The withholding tax is not easy to answer because it depends on whether we are talking about Swiss withholding tax (no) or any witholding tax (yes, because US 15%). But usually, US 15% is done in another form (DA-1).

As for your last question, No. If you declare it under shares and then under balances, you will be taxed twice I believe.

I hope that someone from Bern can chime in to validate this. This software looks much more complicated than the one we use in Fribourg that does fill everything for you.

 

[pedroferreira]

Hello again,

Ok, while navigating in the portal and reading a few things under thos "i" in front of the fields I got some "answers/suggestions":
It seems to be recommended to select the Manual Calculation when there are multiple dividend payment dates (check file notice.jpg). Also attached a Manual_Calculation.jpg file which describes a bit more this option.

Regarding the previous answers:
1) I disagree with you because the tax office will consider the 4 shares paid dividends in all 4 dates, so the value to be taxed would be different.
2) Already tried multiple formats and it seems only DD.MM format is acceptable, so no multiple dates possible.
3) Yes, it is not clear which one it is. I have attached a screenshot (withholding_tax.jpg) which provides some info. I would think it is a yes. You mention DA-1, which is an option I have also. What should I put in there? Can you please elaborate?

Finally, I have put an example together considering (example.jpg):
- manual calculation
- currency = usd
- number of units as of December 31, 2024 = 77 (shares I own)
- no dividend date
- correct amount of shares
- Total taxable gross income in the relevant currency = the gross amount in usd paid in dividends even before the deduction at the source
- total tax value in corresponding currency = amount in usd paid in taxes at the source.

What do you think about the example? Would this be the correct way of putting it? Do you think if I call tax office they can clarify this kind of things?

On another topic, I have also some funds which do not pay any dividends. I guess this is also the place to put them. Now, I have one fund which is basically using a saving account. During 2024, I have changed how the money was invested. Until some point it was just paying interest, and then I have decided to put all of it in a fund. So, I guess I need to put it here.
The other type of fund is related to 3rd pillar accounts (3a). Similarly I have applied the money to funds during 2024. Until then it was a kind of saving account which was declared in the "bank account and balances" rubric. I have been toping every year with the maximum allowed and in 2024 was no exception. So, I will present a document saying I have deposited 7056 chf, but I guess I also need to put here the funds behind the 3rd pillar accounts, is that correct?

Thank you so much for helping me out clarifying my doubts/questions and so quickly.
Pedro

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

If you cannot enter several dates in one go and have bought multiple times, you will need to declare each lot multiple times.

Regarding the withholding tax, it seems to be CH only in this case. So, you can probably say no. However, you will then have to reclaim this US withholding through a DA-1 form, which is hopefully available on this platform. Since the minimum to reclaim is 100 CHF, you can probably wait until next year if you just started out.

In the example you have done, I find the total tax value to be weird. Why is it so low and why does it look like withholding is applied there? I would also put no to withholding if this is only for CH withholding.

I would see any publicly traded fund should be put here indeed. If they don't pay dividends, they will simply have no income but only a tax value. Be careful that accumulating funds still need to declare the dividends.

For 3a, you do not have to declare them here because we do not pay a wealth tax on them nor pay an income tax on their dividends.

 

[pedroferreira]

Ok, let's go part by part.
I think I don't need to declare each lot multiple times, because as some of the screenshots sent it says that for cases the dividends have multiple dates the manual calculation should be used instead. At least that was my understanding, is yours different?

As for the withholding tax, I do have more than 100 CHF, or let's say, considering the 15% retention at the source, I have paid a lot more than just 100 chf. I also do not have all the shares in IBKR, but also a Portuguese bank, which is only charging 15% in case of the American shares. At the bank they also charge a commission of 2.4% of the dividend value I get after those 15% retention.
The DA-1 form is available in the platform, I have attached 2 screenshots (is too big to fit in one). Can you also tell me how to fill in this?

In the example I have given you I have filled in the following:
1) number of units as December 31, 2024 --> with the value 77
2) currency --> I have set it to USD, as all the info I have in my spreadsheet is in USD
3) Would you like to do the calculations manually? --> Set to Yes, as per suggestion of TaxMe regarding multiple dividend dates in a civil year
4) Total taxable gross income in the relevant currency --> Entered the gross value which I made with Pepsi (326 chf) in the whole year of 2024
5) Subject to withholding tax? --> Set it to Yes, but as you said I will need to set it to No
6) Total tax value in corresponding currency --> The value 49 was entered by me and that corresponds to the 15% of the 326 usd I have received gross.
What would you do differently while filling in this form apart from the withholding tax set to No?

The funds I have do not pay any dividends. So, only when I sell any of them I will have to pay taxes on any extra value I got from them.

Regarding the 3a pillar, how will I then declare the 2 accounts I already have? If I understood you correctly, these do not pay tax, meaning is not part of an individuals wealth, consequently should not be even declared anywhere, is that correct?

One additional question, for the fund that I have which is not linked to the 3rd pillar. This is the symbol I have at investing.com: 0P00000RVU
Still, the TaxMe tool cannot find this. When I tried to search for it in ICTax, could not find it either, so I'm not sure how to fill in the form for this one either.

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

What would you do differently while filling in this form apart from the withholding tax set to No?

For your example, I still believe that the last two lines are for wealth and not income. For the first one, I would put 77 * Value of Pepsico in USD. And for the last one, it should compute this to be the wealth value of your shares in CHF.

I think I don't need to declare each lot multiple times, because as some of the screenshots sent it says that for cases the dividends have multiple dates the manual calculation should be used instead. At least that was my understanding, is yours different?

In this case, you should be good. As long as you entered the total correctly, you will only need the final tax value and the income.

As for the withholding tax, I do have more than 100 CHF, or let's say, considering the 15% retention at the source, I have paid a lot more than just 100 chf. I also do not have all the shares in IBKR, but also a Portuguese bank, which is only charging 15% in case of the American shares. A

In this case, you will have to create an entry for each share in the DA-1 form (I guess "create new entry" will do that for one share at a time). Since both banks charge the 15% withholding, you will have to do that for both banks.

Regarding the 3a pillar, how will I then declare the 2 accounts I already have? If I understood you correctly, these do not pay tax, meaning is not part of an individuals wealth, consequently should not be even declared anywhere, is that correct?

Correct. You only need to declare the deduction, not the account.

When I tried to search for it in ICTax, could not find it either, so I'm not sure how to fill in the form for this one either.

So, either you enter everything manually or you contact ICTax to add this fund to their list. I know multiple people who have asked to add funds and it worked quite quickly.

 

[pedroferreira]

Ok, if I understood you correctly this is how you should put it (Example_Declarion.jpg), or did I miss something?

As for the DA-1, I have attached the DA-1_Example file which stands for the example I have given in the stocks. I think this is more or less straight forward. Still in DA-1, and at the bottom of the form there ar a couple of questions which I don't fully understand (DA-1_Questions.jpg).
The taxes I pay is depending on my income, I don't know if it is flat rate or something else. I would assume the answer here is Yes.
As for the joint portfolio question... I am doing the tax declaration for my family, which includes my wife. We both have shares and the amounts which I am entering in the forms are the sum of both. Does this mean I should put a Yes here?

As for the funds I will try to reach out to them and see if it can be added.

You mentioned before this ICTax website, is this something I should use to generate files which I will then upload in the eTax Statements section? I have tried to do that with one of the shares and when uploading the file, it gave me an error. Do I need to use this eTax Statements?

Last but not least, is there any documents which I should upload to justify the shares I have? In the Portuguese bank, for tax purposes they sum all the values by country, for example in US I got, as an example, 500 usd in dividends and paid 75 usd in taxes. I could also get a list of the shares I have and some of the figures, like amount of each, market value on date X, etc... but here it doesn't say how much dividends a certain company paid me. So, I am not sure if any document that I can upload would satisfy the Tax Office, but on the other hand I understand that some documentation should be provided.

Would you be available for a computer call with screen sharing or meeting in person? I understand it's not your obligation, but would be really helpful to get me through this.

Thanks

 

[pedroferreira]

Ah, with the help of investing.com I managed to find the fund in ICTax website. Unfortunately I could not find the ISIN at my bank, but I had at investing.com the symbol for this fund, and there I could get the ISIN.
One question, should I put any purchase date? The reason why I didn't put any, is simply because I have multiple. I continuously by a certain amount every month.
I have attached the file here (ICTax - Fund.jpg), but now I don't know what to do with this. As I have mentioned before I am not able to upload this file in eTax Statements section.
Sending this document to the tax office also doesn't prove I own anything, so I'm not sure what this could be used for. The only help I can see is just to fill the values manually under the Stocks/Funds section we have been discussing, and nothing more.

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

Ok, if I understood you correctly this is how you should put it (Example_Declarion.jpg), or did I miss something?

Yes, this is what I would do. Of course, this does not mean it's true, only what I would have done.

As for the DA-1, I have attached the DA-1_Example file which stands for the example I have given in the stocks. I think this is more or less straight forward. Still in DA-1, and at the bottom of the form there ar a couple of questions which I don't fully understand (DA-1_Questions.jpg).

This seems correct indeed. The only thing is that you have to be careful to not taxed twice. Maybe, if you fill the DA-1, you do not have to fill the other sheet. But that's more a question for the tax office to be sure.

The taxes I pay is depending on my income, I don't know if it is flat rate or something else. I would assume the answer here is Yes.

I don't understand this question. I don't think any canton in Switzerland has a flat tax rate, we have progressive tax rates.

As for the joint portfolio question... I am doing the tax declaration for my family, which includes my wife. We both have shares and the amounts which I am entering in the forms are the sum of both. Does this mean I should put a Yes here?

I don't know, the question is weird as well. I do not understand why they mix joint accounts and inheritance there.

You mentioned before this ICTax website, is this something I should use to generate files which I will then upload in the eTax Statements section? I have tried to do that with one of the shares and when uploading the file, it gave me an error. Do I need to use this eTax Statements?

No. Normally you only have to deal with ICTAX if there are missing a fund or share or if you are looking for information.

Last but not least, is there any documents which I should upload to justify the shares I have?

Yes, you should join documents. In IBKR, I join an activity statement because it's very complete. Maybe a summary is fine for your other account, but this will depend on the Bern tax office.

Would you be available for a computer call with screen sharing or meeting in person?

No, I don't do that neither paid nor free.

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

One question, should I put any purchase date? The reason why I didn't put any, is simply because I have multiple. I continuously by a certain amount every month.

In the case of Fribourg, they use the purchase date to compute the dividends automatically. But if you are doing manually in your case, I am not sure you need the purchase date, but I could be wrong.

 

[pedroferreira]

Ok, thank you very much for the answers.

Maybe the tax flate rate is dedicated to some special cases, of Swiss citizens that were abroad and return to Switzerland, I don't know. But it seems clear I should go with the other option.

As for the documents which I should send to them, you suggest to send whatever I have and wait for their response, meaning if they come back with some additional request or not, correct?

As for the Stocks/Funds and the DA-1, I am not sure if one is enough. Because I think the stocks rubric alone does not say exactly how much was retained at the source, which is something you can specify in the DA-1. I also have some european companies which have charged me different percentages. In case it is ambiguous to the tax office I guess they will come back to me.

Considering that the declaration is for me and my wife, would you consider it as a joint portfolio?

About the eTax statements section, I guess that is only for some specific cases where the bank provides info in a specific format which is accepted/agreed with the tax office, or?

The document which you mention in IBKR is the Activity document, I presume. The whole document contains a lot of information, which I am sure it is unnecessary for the Tax Office. I can generate one which contains only the sections for dividends and taxes on dividends. What do you usually put?

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

Considering that the declaration is for me and my wife, would you consider it as a joint portfolio?

I would, but I am not sure this is what they mean.

About the eTax statements section, I guess that is only for some specific cases where the bank provides info in a specific format which is accepted/agreed with the tax office, or?

Exactly, some banks provide these statements and then they can be imported directly into the tax declaration without manual intervention.

The document which you mention in IBKR is the Activity document, I presume. The whole document contains a lot of information, which I am sure it is unnecessary for the Tax Office. I can generate one which contains only the sections for dividends and taxes on dividends. What do you usually put?

Yes, it's the activity statement. I let everything in the document, I am lazy

 

[pedroferreira]

I have just now completed the form for stocks and DA-1. When getting to the Overview of assets and securities it does consider the income of both, which makes me believe now that only one should be filled in. The question now is which one, is it irrelevant?
I may be wrong, but to me it sounds like the Stocks and Funds are more oriented for Swiss investments, while the DA-1 are more for the case like me where I'm owning shares from companies outside Switzerland and even using platforms which are not Swiss, such as the Portugues bank and IBKR. I would like to remind you that DA-1 allows be to select the retention at the source percentage, while the other doesn't, hence the reason I believe the shares in my case should be declared only on DA-1.
What is your point of view on this?

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

The question now is which one, is it irrelevant?

If you only fill one, you must fill the DA-1. Otherwise, you lose the ability to reclaim the dividend withholding.

 

[zeusone]

Hello,

thank you for this helpful thread. I'm currently living in Bern Canton, and the information here has been very useful.
After reading everything, I decided to only complete the DA-1 section and not include my VT shares under "Aktien / Anlagefonds".
The DA-1 form asks for the share value at the end of the year and I attach the Interactive Brokers statement for the year, so the authorities have all the needed information.
I initially tried to include both, but I realized that it would result in paying more tax, as it seems the shares would be counted twice.

For the DA-1 section, I declared the shares as shown in "1.png". As you can see, there are a strange zero values in the first three rows. In "2.png", I show how I completed these rows with zeros. Only the last row has the correct value for "Total Steuerwert in CHF" as seen in "3.png."
I wrote it this way because, without it, the summary PDF would seem incorrect.
"4.png" is generated when all four rows have the correct values.
"5.png" is generated when the first three rows are set to zero.
To me, "5.png" seems correct because the "Total Steuerwert" is correct.

What do you think?

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

I initially tried to include both, but I realized that it would result in paying more tax, as it seems the shares would be counted twice.

Yes, that's correct, you should only include it once.

What do you think?

If the totals are the same than on the PDF, it's good. But I am not sure I understand why you have 3 lines with 0 value.

I assume that you bought VT four times this year? Usually, you would enter each lot differently, for instance:
* 20.03 109 new shares
* 25.06 300 new shares
* 24.09 400 new shares
* 24.12 349 new shares

And then the software will compute the net value of each as well as the dividends.

Can the Bern software compute the dividends for you?

 

[zeusone]

Yes, that's correct, you should only include it once.

Thanks

If the totals are the same than on the PDF, it's good. But I am not sure I understand why you have 3 lines with 0 value.

I assume that you bought VT four times this year? Usually, you would enter each lot differently, for instance:
* 20.03 109 new shares
* 25.06 300 new shares
* 24.09 400 new shares
* 24.12 349 new shares

And then the software will compute the net value of each as well as the dividends.

Can the Bern software compute the dividends for you?

The Bern software doesn’t seem to be computing much at all. In the screenshot (2.png), only the light blue background field is being auto-filled.

In the rows shown in (1.png), I enter the total number of shares (all shares, not just the new ones) because the dividends are calculated on the total shares, and I obtain the dividend value from the Interactive report.

As you can see, the last three rows have the same numbers since I haven’t made any new investments.

What confuses me is the "Total Steuerwert" field. I expected it to display the entire amount, but when I enter that, the generated PDF sums up the values from all rows (see 4.png) instead of showing the correct total (as shown in 5.png).

If I only include the new shares, how will the authorities determine the total value of my portfolio at year-end?

 

[Baptiste Wicht]

The Bern software doesn’t seem to be computing much at all. In the screenshot (2.png), only the light blue background field is being auto-filled.

Interesting, the one from Fribourg can compute all dividends and end value. I thought it was the norm for each canton.

In these cases, it seems fine the way you did it since the total value is correct and the total dividends is also correct.

What I do in Fribourg:
1. Enter total number of shares from the previous year
2. Enter each lot I bought during the year one by one

And then, the software takes care of all the sums. I never repeat the same lot like you did, but maybe you have no choice in Bern.

 

[zeusone]

Thanks so much for the hints